Episode 18 Transcript: Lucius
Lucius & Danny Carissimi From The Sugar High Podcast
Danny: Thank you for coming on. I’ve been waiting for this for a while; that first meeting that we had 6 or 7 years ago -- a lot has happened since then. It is kind of cool, that we had that meeting, and then I basically turned on the TV and was like, “Wait, what the fuck?” Like, this went down. And I remember a decent amount from that, but apparently you remember something different, so I want to know.
Holly: [We] kind of want to hear your version first!
Danny: I want to give some context here, okay? So my cousin Michael, Holly, y’all grew up together. And Michael contacted me, and at the time I was managing a band called Neon Indian, and he just said, “Hey, I’ve got a friend, she’s in a band, and she is just looking for some advice, or something.” And the thing is, I was also aware that like, I think that because I was working with a band, people thought that I could actually dish out more knowledgeable advice than I actually could at the time. So I was like, “Sure, I’ll take the meeting, but I don’t know how much I’m actually going to be able to help.” And then, from what I gathered, I listened to it, and we met up, and it didn’t really accomplished a lot.
Holly: Where did we go?
Danny: We went to Fabian’s in Williamsburg.
Jess: Oh right, on Bedford & North 5th.
Danny: We sat inside, and you know, ladies and gentlemen, if you’re going to go to Fabian’s, I just want you to know, the desserts are great, everything else is kind of a yucker.
Jess: I remember them having really great salads?
Danny: Okay, fine, the salads and the desserts. I think Scandinavian tourists, for some reason, always go to Fabian’s.
Jess: But then Egg opened up like, half a block away, and it all went down.
Danny: It murdered Fabian’s.
Jess: Sorry, Fabian.
Danny: So we were at Fabian’s, and I do remember the two of you --
Jess: --Would it be Fab-ee-yohn? If it’s French? I don’t know.
Danny: Yeah, the majority of our audience is French, so.
Jess: So then it’s definitely Fab-ee-yohn.
Danny: Yeah, it’s definitely Fab-ee-yohn, for the one French guy that’s for some reason listening to this. But, yeah, so, one thing I do remember from that, and I was thinking about this today, is that you two -- Holly, I remember you expressed some doubt in the future of your musical career, like, what if this doesn’t happen? And you went, you grabbed her arm, and you said, “It’s going to happen.” And I remember that, because it was such a cool moment. You were very determined, and I remember that. I do remember that I said that I liked a song, and you said something to the effect of like, “You would like that song, it’s the hipster song.”
Jess: Wow, very sassy.
Danny: It was a little sassy.
Jess: Well I think this was after you had said that you didn’t quite understand the record, and that it sort of felt all over the place. So I was probably being defensive, as I was like, “We’re gonna make it!” But, you know, I don’t remember a time where Holly and I really expressed doubts in the record, I really don’t. I mean, I think we both had worries about making money, but I don’t really remember a doubtful time.
Danny: And maybe I’m misconstruing what I said with that sort of thing. You know, with kind of the practical concerns of, “Are we going to get a living?” and those sorts of things.
Holly: I can see myself being like, “Well, I don’t know, we’ll see how this works out,” kind of thing. It did take us a while to get signed. It took about a year after we made the record, maybe a little more. I think it was more -- maybe a year and a half. And we had a manager, and then we didn’t have a manager, and then we had another manager, and then we didn’t have a manager, and now we’ve been with Ben for years.
Danny: So we had this meeting, we parted ways, and then things started going really well for y’all. And I want to get to that, so I want to talk about a little bit before, and I just want to figure out what in God’s name did the two of you do during that process, because the two of you were hustling really hard, and it actually worked out. So I know you’re from Ohio -- Holly, where are you from?
Jess: Los Angeles.
Danny: You’re from Los Angeles? Are your parents in entertainment?
Jess: Not at all.
Danny: Is there a thing with growing up in L.A., where you are almost allergic to pursuing something in the arts?
Jess: I think you just see it as not abnormal, so it doesn’t feel like this like, huge thing that you have to somehow overcome. I think, if anything, it makes it more achievable, somehow, because you don’t put so much pressure or weight on it.
Danny: And, Holly, you’re from Ohio. Bay Village?
Holly: Mike’s in Bay Village. I’m in Fairview Park.
Danny: And I know that’s a massive entertainment hub.
Holly: Right, exactly. Yeah. I definitely had that experience of like, “How did they get in that TV? I wanna do that!” But it seemed completely far away. I didn’t know the first thing about doing it, you know? My choir teacher was this severe chainsmoker; she would only sing the tenor parts. And like, all the arts and music programs were seriously failing, or always on the chopping block kind of thing. And so, like, watching MTV, it just seemed like this distant, faraway land, but magical. I was like, “Well, I guess I’ve got to get out of Ohio and see what happens.” I like going back to Ohio; I like Ohio, it was a good place to grow up, but it definitely felt harder to figure out how to get here.
Danny: Yeah, it didn’t seem as plausible.
Lauren: Yeah, but it’s true like, when you come here, the kind of curtain comes down, and it’s different.
Danny: Jess, what were you listening to when you were younger? Were you raised on anything in particular?
Jess: Yeah, and actually where Holly and I first connected was our likes, our similar tastes in music, and our musical upbringings. So, a lot of old school soul music, 60s rock n’ roll.
Danny: Is this from your parents?
Jess: Yeah, you know, my dad and I -- and actually Holly and her parents -- took long car rides with music playing, and that’s how I was introduced to records like Roy Orbison, Sam Cooke, Linda Ronstadt, and The Beatles, and Elvis and David Bowie. Those were sort of the soundtrack.
Danny: Your parents have great taste in music.
Jess: My dad loved great music. He’s -- sorry dad -- he’s totally tone-deaf, but he had great taste in music, and really appreciated a wonderful voice, and great songs, pop songs. So that’s what got me at a young age; I fell in love with Roy Orbison and Sam Cooke, and it was over. I just wanted to be like them.
Danny: Yeah, and you’re both clearly very technically proficient when it comes to singing. Jess, did you take lessons when you were younger?
Jess: Mhmm, I did choir for a couple years, and I also had a singing teacher. I started in community theatre when I was like, 5 years old? So, my mom, she would catch me singing and performing around the house, and so luckily she saw that in me, and I was probably very hyperactive and she was like, “Well what can we do to counter that?” So she signed me up for theatre.
Danny: It makes sense; what you make, I think, is very theatrical in the presentation, and sonically.
Jess: Thank you. We like a lot of drama on stage.
Danny: But, Holly, you had vocal lessons.
Holly: Yeah, I did take private lessons starting in high school, because I wanted to learn from somebody outside of my school. From there, I think -- well, randomly, I worked at a pizza place with Mike, our bass. He had been a drummer at Berklee, and he was the one who told us about it, and I said “I wanna go there!” And didn’t even think about the fact that he wasn’t doing music. Like, he had owned a pizza shop. It didn’t even -- I didn’t connect the two. But anyways, I was like, “I wanna go there!” And that was kind of my ticket it out of there.
Danny: Berklee does sound so appealing, I think, when you’re from a place that’s not like L.A. or New York, because it seems like it’s some point of entry. Who knows. But, you did know in high school that you wanted to pursue music as your profession.
Danny: Were there any other options?
Holly: No, that was the only place I applied, and it was kind of like all-or-nothing for me. So, thank god that worked out. But, yeah, I think I knew like junior year of high school that this is what I want to do, and that’s it. We had senior evaluations with our guidance counselors, and they were like, “You should do something a little more...something you can actually do that’s a little more plausible for you.” You’re not going to make it, basically. And I was like, well, I’m going anyway.
Danny: Jess, were you receiving kind of the same thing at the same time?
Holly: I was on my way to a music camp when I was in high school, and I was there for a musical theatre program, but I just ended up hanging out with all the jazz guys, and singing while they played. And, you know, the next year was when we started applying for schools, and all of the schools I had gotten into were for musical theatre, except Berklee. So for me, it was like a really big decision, like, what kind of music am I going to do? It felt sort of traumatic to make that decision; it felt like a big [thing]. But I really don’t feel a part of the theatre community; I didn’t feel like that was my world, and when I went to Berklee, it just felt natural. I’m really happy I did that, because it was the first time I really felt like I had a community. I met some of my best friends, and my future writing wife.
Danny: You weren’t really deterred as much; you didn’t have the counselor sitting you down.
L (Jess): No, I’ve been lucky in that way. I never had somebody saying, “Are you crazy? What are you doing to yourself?” Maybe because I showed no doubt.
Danny: I know that you guys don’t necessarily want to talk about Berklee that much, and we won’t, but I’m just curious - when you end up going to a school like that, especially when you go to school for music, does it put a different kind of pressure on you, because you know how much it costs?
Jess: Just to clarify - it’s not that we don’t like to talk about Berklee, it’s just that at some point, that became like, one of the bigger points in our story, and it’s not. But what was so special about it, and what Holly and I are really the most grateful for, is what a community it brought to us, because neither of us really had that creative community growing up.
Danny: Does it put a pressure on you?
Jess: It didn’t for me. I mean, clearly it’s very expensive, but as far as having a real community, I think once we went out into the “real world,” there was a sort of comfort knowing that we had so many other people who were there with us in this circle of musical fear.
Danny: Yeah, I guess if you were to just go to New York by yourself, that’s a lot more intimidating.
Jess: Yeah, starting from scratch, not knowing anybody, or anyone who’s been a part of it or done it.
Danny: And even just finding good musicians. When the two of you -- graduation’s around the corner, [and] you knew you were going to move to New York, right? There was no question about it?
Danny: Did you contemplate going back to L.A.?
Holly: No, because Jess is from there, and I think we both wanted something new. We had a community out there; we had some friends that had graduated the year before. We wanted to go there to experience the, you know, the high of it all. The rush of New York, and the energy of it.
Danny: Yeah, and you hit the ground running when you get to New York.
Lucius: Actually, we were freaked out for the first like, eight months. It was pretty rough.
SH: When you showed up, did you have to get jobs?
Danny: What did you do?
Holly: Oh god, okay. Barista was first, I think. I worked in an Irish pub; I worked as a nanny for the whole time I was in New York, pretty much. I worked at “Jazz Reach.”
Danny: What is “Jazz Reach?”
Holly: It was like this jazz nonprofit organization, and I was helping book theatres and things like that. I worked at an Israeli restaurant that’s very tasty called Mimi’s Hummus. Um, yeah - an array; an array of jobs, you know, 2-3 at a time. And then we would write in the evenings, or get together whenever we could when we had days off.
Danny: And, Jess, you were working jobs as well.
Jess: At Berklee, I studied music business and vocal performance, and I thought it would be helpful to us if I could somehow work on the business end of things, so that I could make sure that nobody could fool with us.
Danny: Your game is tight; you know the ins and the outs.
Jess: Because I know so much -- no, not really. So I worked for a booking agent in the city for a short while, which was okay. And then I actually became a booking agent, and that was about an hour commute to West Chester for [???] Agency, so I was booking like, Patti Labelle, and a lot of soul music.
Danny: This is cool, because I have a strong opinion that touring ruins a lot of bands, because they don’t know how to do it. So it’s cool that you have that experience, and so you knew what was up.
Jess: Yeah, I wanted to learn firsthand so that I could do it for us. But it was a rough environment. I think being the only female agent in the company, there was a lot of pressure, and I might not have been treated all that greatly.
Danny: I thought the music industry was such a progressive environment, Jess.
Jess: Well, this is an old school environment. But, you know, I learned a lot. I remember the day that I quit, and it was a good one. You know, I was there for a year, and then after that, it really put a fire under my ass -- and I think both of ours -- to just hustle, and I think we were playing open mics at least once a week, and doing shows at Rockwood Music Hall, and The Living Room.
Danny: It’s really hard working a job, and then coming home and meeting up with somebody, especially in a city like New York, because you were so exhausted when you’re done with the day. And then actually coming home and being creatively productive sucks. Was it a challenge?
Jess: Not really, I think that was the only place where we felt really happy. The jobs were not where we wanted to be, so if we could be creating and doing something that felt good, and that felt like our own, then that was the highlight of my day; especially the open mics and stuff, and the community there. And actually Holly and I were really involved in the jazz circuit for a while, and a lot of our friends and roommates and stuff were jazz musicians, so we got to experience that world as well, which, we saw a lot of difficulty there, too, and it sort of enforced that we wanted to move in a direction that wasn’t there.
Danny: Yeah. When you were both in this grind, did making it your career financially seem easier or harder than when you were in college?
Holly: It was just a grind all along. I think that maybe that was part of the thing you were referring to when we met before, having doubts, because in college and in New York City, you’re barely keeping your head above water all the time, you know, financially. And it was like, if I’m working two or three jobs, and then trying to write, how am I ever going to only write? It was an impossible thing to imagine. I literally worked until we were on the road, and then even when we were on the road, for a while, I kept one of my jobs, and had girls covering me. And then come back and just, yeah, just transitioned until we were getting a couple sync licenses in, and it would help cover whatever I had missed. And, you know, I transitioned and it became plausible. Until I saw it before my eyes, it was just hard.
Danny: So how long was it into this journey when we had our fateful meeting at Fabian’s?
Holly: We were there a couple years.
Danny: You guys had been grinding it out for a while.
Holly: Yeah, the first year was really just getting our footing in New York, when we started doing open mics. Then the second year, we really were pushing. You know, we’d already been writing for several years, and we didn’t tour until we felt like we could have an audience and not lose money.
Danny: Which is a huge mistake bands make.
Jess: Yeah, if I learned anything from being an agent, that was a huge part: don’t do it unless you can afford to. And also, what’s the point in touring and losing money if nobody’s showing up to your shows? There’s ways to get out there locally, or at least for us it was the tri-state area - that’s where we focused for the first couple of years.
Danny: It takes time.
Jess: It does take time, and I don’t remember the point of when it became not fully music. I think it really was when we did our first like, full-fledged tour; we never really went back to work.
Danny: Yeah, and it seems as though you would have to wait a bit, because you do have a production and you have a vibe. You guys would have to have, I think, you would have to have it right before you take it on the road.
Holly: Yeah, well, I don’t know. It was simplified.
Danny: Did you dress up and stuff when you would go to open mics, for example?
Holly: No, not the first year.
Danny: So, after we met, you leave, and...what is the next step? You said you found a manager?
Jess: Once we needed help with certain things, I think we looked for it. We were doing it all for a while; whatever we could and however we could.
Danny: I speak for two individuals that I think are going to be in the exact same position -- what really was your day-to-day, at that time? Because you recorded an album…
Jess: Yeah, and the material is what’s most important. If you have good songs, people are going to pay attention to you. We did whatever we could to find opportunities; whether it was asking friends to open up for their shows, or knocking on the venues’ doors and being persistent and asking for opportunities and taking whatever we could for a long time until we had the option to say “no,” or to say “well, we want this.”
Danny: Holly, was there any particular moment where things seemed to be some sort of break?
Holly: The first step was finding our band, and finding the guys, and having people commit to this vision that we had.
Danny: That’s very hard, right? Because they’re not -- the two of you are the main songwriters, and presumably the main beneficiaries, so getting people, especially in New York, to sign on as auxiliary members or ancillary members, that’s difficult.
Holly: Yeah, it was. You know, it took us a long time to find the right guys, and we did. And then we started playing more shows. The “break” that we had would have been Tiny Desk. NPR’s Tiny Desk, we did, and that was the first time we saw results. At live shows, people would come up to us after and say, “I found you on Tiny Desk!” And that was the first time. Before that, it was like, friends coming to shows, or friends’ friends; which is great, and there was this community that we had, but that was the first time that total strangers were coming, and that felt like, whoa.
Danny: It seems like almost every band, now, they got big online initially, and that’s how they started doing it. But for you, it was NPR.
Jess: I mean technically the video, the Tiny Desk Concert, was what “broke.” And then touring relentlessly.
Danny: Did Mom & Pop, your label, come on after that?
Jess: Yes. I think we did like, one tour. Because Tiny Desk was like, in the middle of a tour.
Danny: How was your first tour?
Jess: Our first tour was with Jadie McPherson, and it was a short little tour. And all of our gear in our van were stolen. So we had to borrow all this gear, and borrow a van. We did a Kickstarter. And a little while after that, we did a tour with this band called Milo Greene; after that it was the Tiny Desk, and then we sort of toured relentlessly. I don’t even remember. Different bands, but also headlining stuff, and then we went to South By. And that was our first -- we had been to South By a couple of times, but it was the first time that we actually drew some attention. We had some labels interested, we got a publishing deal in Europe; it was a really fruitful time.
Danny: South by Southwest, you were one of the few bands that comes in, and it works for you.
Jess: Yeah, I mean, we had been there a couple of years before with nothing. The first time we went, and actually played, we stood on the tables in the food truck area, and made our own show.
Danny: Now, you both had jobs -- Jess, I know you said you felt relief when you quit yours, but Holly, when you actually had to say “Hey, I’m quitting these jobs,” did you feel some anxiety?
Holly: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, I didn’t really have a choice. I mean, I hung as long as I could to those jobs, you know, so that when we would come back, I could get a couple weeks in or whatever. At a certain point, I had to bite the bullet and hope it worked out, and I don’t remember exactly how it all worked out, but we were scraping by.
Danny: Once the record finally came out, and it did well, and was very well-reviewed; you started playing larger shows. Was there ever a feeling of relief, like, we’ve made it?
Jess: I think there’s milestones and bookmarks. Tiny Desk was one of them. And I remember South By, where we played St. David’s Cathedral. And then our first T.V. appearance; getting to sing with Mavis Staples and Jeff Tweedy and Wilco; those were all sorts of things that really pushed us to keep going. And we were really lucky. It gave us more confidence, but also, like, the feeling that we’re doing the right thing.
Danny: So it was more a feeling that you’re on the right path, rather than like, “We’ve made it.” Do you think that that exists -- do you think there is something such as “making it?”
Holly: We were talking about this the other day, how like, playing big shows, you kind of almost have to be numb to it when it’s happening to get through it, because it can become so overwhelming; but then it’s not until after the fact that you’re like, “Whoa, that was wild.” I think that happens with individual shows, and I think that also happens on a larger scale. Also, I think what your expectations and also what you see for yourself or what you want for yourself changes as you accomplish more things. So, I don’t know that would ever be a feeling even for Beyonce. I think she’s made it.
Danny: I think she feels pretty good.
Jess: I think Beyonce’s doing alright.
Danny: When you go into writing a second record, did the two of you debate at all about what it would sound like?
Holly : We were coming off a whirlwind tour; we had been touring nonstop, and then it was kind of like, [screech], write a record.
Danny: You didn’t get like, a vacation period.
Holly: No, no.
Danny: It was like, hop straight back in the studio.
Holly: Yeah, we got off tour after a year and a half straight -- I think we had 20 days total, non consecutive off -- and we got off tour, and then we decided to then drive from New York to California. So we were basically back on tour. We were coming here to find some relaxation to write and get an AirBNB and some space to think and yada yada. So we did that, and I think by the time we got here, it was just like, we were just sort of purging all of these songs and ideas,. And then looking at them, we didn’t really look at anything until we got to the studio, and it was like, “Well, what do we have here? What are we working with?” And from there, we created landscapes around everything; we literally put song references in a box, and we would shake them up and take them out and listen to them and talk amongst the band about what sounds we like.
Danny: So at that point, you had introduced the rest of the band to the songwriting process?
Holly: By the time we got to the studio, the skeletons of the songs were done, and we were in arranging mode.
Danny: The two of you are always the inception of the initial skeleton of the song. Are you pretty open to outside ideas from the band, or are the two of you very specific?
Jess: The guys are a big part of the arrangement process. I mean, and sometimes it makes the song breathe. So, we’re definitely open, and they’re so wildly talented and offer so much. And Danny is a producer and an engineer, and a songwriter, so he hears the songs and he really does know how to deliver them, you know, to receive and deliver. So it’s really helpful, and he’s a big part of that.
Danny: When you’re writing, because you’re singing at the same time -- if you’re actually in a room, and you’re starting to write a song, do you just stare at each other? Or how does that actually work?
Holly: Yeah. Sort of.
Danny: Well, it’s kind of a cheesy example, but Paul McCartney and John Lennon do talk about sitting with guitars and staring at each other, writing songs as they’re playing.
Jess: Maybe less just looking deep into each other’s eyes, but one of us will have a lyric, or a melody, and the other will sort of help complete the thought. It’s a very collaborative effort. We understand each other’s musical language.
Danny: Do you think because the two of you studied so much, that you approach songwriting differently?
Holly: No. The theory and technique is not our strength, but we definitely have an understanding of it. And we write on piano or guitar, very simple kind of demos, which is what I was saying about the skeleton of a song -- that kind of bare bones kind of songwriting that we do. And sometimes we’ll do more full demos, and arrange it and do vocal arrangements and things like that before sending it to the guys.
Danny: Does one of you normally start the song, and the other one adds to it, or it’s equal?
Jess: No, there really is no formula, and I think that’s what keeps it exciting. Sometimes we’ll sit in the room and write a new song in an hour, and then sometimes it’ll take days. Or we’ll have a melody that’s stuck in our head forever, and we can’t find the words for it. So, there’s really not one person that contributes greater in one direction or the other. I mean, we like what each other contributes, so that’s a really special thing. It’s exciting.
Danny: Do you ever find yourself in a situation, where everyone has an off-night, or one of you is sick or something, but you have to just deal with this, and you have to sing together. Is this a difficult situation?
Holly: I think it’s actually better, because you have somebody to fill in. If one of our voices is going, then unfortunately it becomes sort of like, the other person loses their voice making up for it. So then the next night it’s like, alright, your turn. But I think we’ve only canceled, in like four years, maybe three or four shows. We’ve been able to compensate for one another if we’ve had to.
Danny: If the band hadn’t taken off, do you think the two of you would be unhappy?
Holly: I don’t think I’d be looking for another type of job, if that’s what you’re asking.
Danny: You’d still be trying to start a band?
Jess: I never really did have a doubt about us. If it hadn’t happened -- so then, with that, if there’s never been a doubt, if it hadn’t happened yet, we would still be going. We started what, twelve years ago? It’s only been five years that we’ve been doing it for real. So, what’s five or ten more years?
Danny: So there was a no cut-off point, where you were like, “If it’s not working out by the time I’m 30, or something, then it’s time to figure something out?”
Holly: That -- no, it wasn’t. But who’s to say.
Danny: It was ride or die.
Danny: It was, but it didn’t feel like that. There wasn’t a pressure associated with us ever, and maybe that is why it worked. We didn’t put the whole world on top of our shoulders. We were just like, this is working, whatever we’re doing is working, and we want to do more of it, and we want to get better at it, and we want to grow. And honestly, we watched what we did, and we listened to a lot of other music, and were very active concert goers and music listeners. So, I think we were constantly trying to absorb and apply it to our own presses, and try and learn from either our own mistakes and weaknesses. We fell flat on our faces several times. We’ve written songs that we’d never want anybody to hear; that nobody will ever hear. But really, I mean it when I say that I don’t think there was a moment when there was a real sense of doubt. There was moments on the road where it was like, “God, I’ve got to stop, I’m so exhausted,” but never like a moment, where, for me, I really didn’t feel like this wasn’t going to work.
Danny: Well, I gotta say, I’m impressed. We had that meeting in Fabian’s, and I’ve wanted to know what happened afterwards, and now I know. I do love both of your records; they’re really good. I want to figure out what that hipster song was.
Jess: I feel like I know exactly what it was - “Man in the Radio.” That did not make the record, but we did record it.
Danny: Maybe that was it; maybe that was the one that I heard.
Jess: It was sort of hipster-y. Well, maybe sometime down the road, special edition.
Danny: I feel like you wrote that song for me.
Holly: It’s because in my apartment building, we had these speakers, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there was like, this radio transmitters, and people would come on. And it was this one man that would always come on in my speaker. And we wrote a song about a man in the radio.
Danny: It was some guy, he had a hobby, he had his little radio?
Jess: I think he was a cop. Or a truck driver maybe? Something like that.
Danny: A truck driver that only drove around your block, infiltrating.
Holly: It was a little creepy, because it really was the same guy. He obviously was using his walkie-talkie somewhere near our house.
Danny: Wow. I want to say that I appreciate you both taking the time. I’m glad that I finally got the scoop, because I’ve been asking these questions to myself for the last six years, and now I know. I’m excited for your next record. Do you know when it’s going to come out?
Jess: Nope, but we’re in the thick of it right now.
Danny: You’re in the shit right now. You’re slogging through it, staring at each other, coming up with melodies.
Jess: Maybe we should try that. Like, whatever you think I’m about to sing, and whatever I think you’re about sing, just try it. And then on three, just both sing what each other’s going to sing.
Danny: Ladies and gentlemen, they just can’t stop writing hits. They just can’t help it. Okay, well again, thank you so much, and I hope you both enjoy the concerts tonight. And hopefully we’ll run into each other again at some point, at another French pastry shop in Silver Lake.
Jess: There’s a few of those!
Danny: Do you have a favorite?
Holly: French pastry shop, or just pastry shop?
Danny: Just pastry shop.
Jess: Proof Bakery. But recently, I’m a big fan of the oat milk latte at Intelligencia. How hipster is that?
Holly: Very. But I do love oatmeal, and I do love lattes.
Jess: Well, it’s not oatmeal, it’s oat milk. But it tastes like oatmeal.
Danny: I’m going to end on that.